Space for discussion on the "Zeitgeist" movement

Since there seems to be a great interest to discuss the "Zeitgeist"-movement after an initial e-mail to the mailing list propagating it I want to open up the discussion to everyone - also those not on the mailing list - and disburden the list by publishing the mails here. Furthermore I want to encouraging everyone to also post their future responses inside the forum here instead of the mailing list.

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Subject: ZGM: global concern of student matters

Hi,

I have been participant in the student movement in germany last autumn until winter.
In regard of the sit-in ending as a game of interests, students being divided and ruled out by those in control of media, the hole movement concerning both, it's smallest results and failures appears to me as the same global crisis and has to be solved by changing the own perspective of self-concern to a higher level.
As for me, I'm now part of the Zeitgeistmovement and will shortly explain to you why:

The Zeitgeistmovement is the communicative arm of the venusproject.
The venusproject stands for a resource -based economy (RBE). It is about autarky, sustainability and true liberty of knowledge as to overcome subjectivity in our sick society.
The main aspect of the venusproject is its already more and more utilized method: Change the world by technical innovations.

Please inform yourself deeply about the issues to fully recognize in detail what we are talking about or join the discussions in the Zeitgeistmovement, visit one of the lectures done by 94- year old Founder of the venusproject Jacque Fresco in a city close to you:
http://www.thevenusproject.com/world-tour-lecture-dates/

please study the understandings:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19&Itemid=53
http://www.thevenusproject.de

or watch as short description on of these summarizing documentaries:

Awakening
http://www.zeitgeistmovement-by.de/index.php?option=com_hwdvideoshare&task=viewvideo&Itemid=243&video_id=7

Zeitgeist Addendum
http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=1352552668588051041#


many lectures are held worldwide:

Social pathology
http://dotsub.com/view/ff47f16e-749c-4344-a36b-ca9c5c7247cb

Where are we going - 2
http://dotsub.com/view/8ea72f84-ae8a-4da0-97e1-7ab84f571a68

Thank you very much for reading this long email.
"We are going to change these matters. We do it now, and we do it in love."

Martin R., München

Lectures in german:
14.7. Uni Graz (AT) www.venusproject.at
28.8. TU München (GER) www.venusproject.de

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The Zeitgeist movement is a conspiracy theory made up by a group of extremely right-wing anti-semitic nuts. There is no place for it in the student movement.

sent by Edward

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hello,
I am as well sceptical about this movement.
still we call ourself education movement so there need to be space to discuss that as well.
Edward, I mean your "arguments" seems just to be a reflex and not a reflected opinion. (like the reflexes in society against any "revolutionary" theory).
When I read the aims of the Zeitgeist movement, then I see no anti-semitic or racist ideas on the surface.
 
  • No Money/Barter or Trade: Money creates established institutions that are forced to protect themselves which inhibits progress. The fractional reserve system, usury/interest, and credit are all functions of this flawed system that creates debt, leading to the need for employment, for the purpose of paying off debts. A process known as 'cyclical consumption.(Zeitgeist Movement Orientation Guide, Page 7)
  • Automation: automation is more productive than human labor and frees mankind from repetitive and tedious tasks.
  • Artificial intelligence: machines are needed to make decisions objectively, unlike humans who are susceptible to personal projections, desires or bias. Machines are also needed to store and retrieve information because humans have a limited capacity for memory.
  • Technological unification of the globe: globally shared technology is required to monitor planetary resources in real time, and make the most efficient use of them in solving planetary problems.
  • Scientific methodology: planetary government is obligated to methodology not individuals. Governing decisions are arrived at through scientific method, not belief.
  • No property: property is wasteful and unsustainable. It is done away with in favor of a system of universal access, which will be made possible through abundance of goods and services, thus eliminating the need for ownership.
  • Sustainable City Systems: unified systems approach. Systems theory and a systemic approach for a self-sustaining globe and culture can be modeled on a smaller scale with a city-size system.
  •  
     
    some of the ideas even correspond with the ideas of the our education movement.
    if you call yourself an activist of an education movement, you need to be able to argue in a reflected way. maybe you can show martin, that Zeitgeist IS anti-semitic and stuff. and we all learned something. right now, I just see reflexes.
    Peace!

    sent by Andreas
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    Even if there should be space to discuss it, propably not on the general mail list.
    There are just to many theories to be discussed.
    Can you take it to a forum or something?

    sent by Niklas
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    I think Niklas is right here. Things like this are best discussed in person. Plus it gets us no where to get into critical arguements over email as those can easily become flaming sessions and create unneccessarry divisions going into periods of action.

    sent by Wes
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    Briefly -

    Some of the key figures in the Zeitgeist movement include Lyndon LaRouche who was (allegedly - don't sue) involved in the racist murder of Sorbonne student Jeremiah Duggan in 2003.

    The case that the Zeitgeist movement is the creation of a secretyive group of rightwing anti-semites and thugs is made in this article: http://thethirdestate.net/2010/03/zeitgeist-exposed/

    More broadly, it is a very, very cranky theory. It is based on some self-appointed genius who claims to have discovered the secret of existence by applying scientific principles to the world. Its method is almost a word-for-word copy of that of Eugen Duehring, another 'scientific' expert on 'reality' from the 19th century left. Engels explains what is wrong with this cranky method here: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1877/anti-duhring/index.htm

    sent by Edward
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    I say relax and fully include the Zeitgeisters who want to participate and influence the movement.
    From what I know of several individals and students in this movement in Ottawa they are authentic, vibrant, motivated, open, and honest.
    We should fully welcome them and engage with them.
    Discourse and interaction should shape the movement, not purity of theory or exclusion.

    my two cents.
    -denis
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    I totally agree with Denis. And I quote: "Discourse and interaction should shape the movement, not purity of theory or exclusion."

    sent by Armando

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    yes, why not, include right wing fascists conspiracy nuts posing as leftists yammering back and forth about the secret cabal running the world, let them influence the movement. after all, the most important thing is that they are authentic, vibrant, motivated, open, and honest.

    I of course cannot speak for everybody here in Croatia, nor for the plenary session of the initiative here in Zagreb (held today, I can mention this to them), but I suspect, and have very good reason to do so as we have already discussed 'zeitgeist' (and dismissed it and its postulates as ludacris), that no one here who is seriously involved in the struggle for education (or the public sector in general, for workers rights, ...) will want to have any part of it, or have much interest in staying in a movement that invites closet fascists to struggle together.

    and yes, i watched both 'zeitgeist' films. pure horse shit. I can understand how it can be appealing to people who know nothing on the matters (been there, and it was), and am symphatetic to them having good intentions and not neccessarily being fascists, but am in no way interested in helping 'zeitgeist' spread even more, it has done enough damage and took enough people into the conspiracy looney bin.

    pardon my french.

    sent by Martin B.
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    Thank you, thank you, Martin. Thank you for your French.

    This is an organizing list. I see some people doing organizing on this list, or communicating about campus struggles. And I see others wasting time and bandwidth on a rightwing cult.

    Eyes on the prize. A revolution is not a tea party.

     - Ben
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    I don't think that it is possible now to enforce a "ban" on any particular political tendency in the ISM (with the exception of, for example, openly racist/fascist groups such as neonazis etc).

    I do think that Zeitgeist are mad, bad and dangerous to know - their politics will discredit the ISM; their politics is dangerous; they are linked to violent right-wing groups.

    I think that because of this, there is no reason to let Zeitgeist use the resources of the ISM (e.g. the website or the email press releases) to promote themselves. And I didn't want to let someone from Zeitgeist promote themselves on the list without being criticised. I don't think their group should be allowed to become 'normal'.

    I also agree with Martin that ideas are important. The ISM is not an ideologically pure network - it can't be and should not try to make itself pure. But that does not mean that ideas are not important. What people think is important. If we decide to be so pluralist that we stop criticising wrong ideas, that is dangerous.

    Our debates should be friendly and open, but also honest. We should not become 'yes-men' who politely say 'yes' to every idea because we are too pluralistic to say 'no' to anything. I say 'no' to rightwing conspiracy nuts and antisemitism.

    I also agree that this should be moved off-list. Where is the appropriate forum? Could a moderator move this thread there?

    sent by Edward

    "key figures"?

    Edward wrote: "Some of the key figures in the Zeitgeist movement include Lyndon LaRouche"

    i've been in the Zeitgeist Movement from the beginning, i'm the chapter coordinator for Austria, and i'm very much involved in the movement internationally, but i have never heard about "Lyndon LaRouche"... who is he supposed to be?

    and in any case, the Zeitgeist Movement is not concerned with "key figures" or anything like that... TZM and the Venus Project are about an IDEA... an idea that exists without any connection to specific personages... it's the idea that every human being should have free access to clean water, healthy food, a roof over their head, education, medical care and any other necessity of a healthy and civilized life, and that dangerous and monotonous tasks should be done by machines as much as technically possible... this idea has existed in my own mind for at least 25 years, as it has in the minds of most other members of TZM, so we're not just stupidly following the ideas of some other person, but rather we're gathering together in this movement, because we all have very similar ideas about how a peaceful, sustainable and reasonable society can be designed for all of mankind

    of course, there is Jacque Fresco who has specified and researched this IDEA almost his entire life, resulting in what is today called The Venus Project and the Resource Based Economy. and there is Peter Joseph, who has made the ZEITGEIST films and has introduced millions of people to the Venus Project through ZEITGEIST ADDENDUM. so these are two of the many people who have done great work to raise awareness about the IDEA. but it is not their idea, it is the idea of everyone who joins the Zeitgeist Movement as well as millions of other people in other groups or movements and countless other people who have the same idea but have until now believed to be pretty much alone with that idea.

    we are showing the people of the world that they are NOT ALONE with this idea.

    so if you share the same idea, but you think you're alone and there's nothing you can do, become part of the Zeitgeist Movement or a similar movement. help spread this idea.

    we live in a time that is so different to anything the world and the human race have ever seen, that basically the only given thing is that NOTHING you have learned is necessarily true. any comparison of the idea of a Resource Based Economy to old or failed ideas like communism or socialism or behaviorism or positivism or any other isms doesn't mean anything. we shouldn't concern ourselves with personages in an ad hominem kind of way, but rather look at the world with open eyes and an open mind, draw the logical conclusions (even if they are hard to accept because of what we have learned before), and act accordingly.

    each of us alone is powerless. but together we can change the world into anything we want it to be (of course within the limits of physical reality).

    Tom

    "violent right-wing groups"?

    again Edward: "they are linked to violent right-wing groups"

    i would really love to know where you get that idea from

    if links like that exist, then i can guarantee you that they were created by people OUTSIDE the Zeitgeist Movement to discredit us

    please follow this simple reasoning:

    1. you become a "member" of the Zeitgeist Movement by supporting and helping to spread the idea of the Resource Based Economy

    2. the idea of the Resource Based Economy is pretty much diametrically opposed to things like "violent right-wing groups"

    3. therefore, by definition, no "member" of TZM could ever be in support of things like "violent right-wing groups"

    4. the Zeitgeist Movement consists of its "members" only, there is no other structure or system or establishment to it. therefore, by definition, TZM cannot be "linked to violent right-wing groups", because none of the "members" of TZM are in support of such groups

    if you still think such connections exist, please present your evidence.

    Tom